Chakradhar and I discuss consumer first insights, a milk testing palette, delivering on a brand promise, iterating endlessly, revolutionising natural and much more!
Chakradhar and I discuss consumer first insights, a milk testing palette, delivering on a brand promise, iterating endlessly, revolutionising milk and much more!
Resources discussed during the interaction:
Movies/Series mentioned: American History X, Matrix, Forbidden Planet, 24,Schindler's List, Marvel movies, Paths of Glory, Gangs of Wasseypur,
Top 500 - Greatest Movies of All Time! by IMDB.
Directors whose work was recommended: Stanley Kubrick, James Cameron
Matrix Partner's Interview: The journey of building Country Delight
About Chakradhar Gade:
Chakradhar is a movie buff, a tech geek and is driven to revolutionise natural living.He is a software engineer and a graduate of IIM Indore. A financial professional turned Milkman. He is the founder of Country Delight, which promises natural, fresh and unadulterated milk directly to the doorstep of the consumer.
Reach out to him here.
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Chakri 0:15
Hi Puneeth. Thank you for having me here.
Puneeth 0:21
My usual first question is, what were the conversations around the dinner table when you were growing up?
Chakri 0:30
When I was growing up, it was mostly around tardies, because, , my parents wanted me to study well, what, , I had a brother, who was, oh, both of us were quite naughty. So, , we used to do a lot of stuff without our parents knowledge. But yeah, when when my parents were there, it was mostly a very well mannered dinner conversation. But but but when when me and my brother were there, then it would be, , going in front of the TV and watching some movies or or doing some random things while eating food.
Puneeth 1:12
So who was born Who?
Chakri 1:14
Who spoiled who my brother's for me, he was the naughtier one. Yeah, he used to get beat up quite a bit by my dad, because of his naughty ways. But , I was, I was a little more What do you say? A timid one. You can say that? Where I would, I would do things with a novice or naughty, but not to the extent that , I get caught in something very bad.
Puneeth 1:54
Maybe you are the charlo chappati, who was good at not getting caught.
Chakri 1:58
My parents say that to date. But , if I just compare, I didn't do many, , I didn't make my parents life. Anyway, very difficult like that. So, yeah.
Puneeth 2:12
Were you the first son? I'm cute. Yeah,
Chakri 2:14
yeah, I was the first son me and my brother is five years younger. To me. I was the first son, both my parents were doctors. And I was doing reasonably well with, , a biology It was a subject of interest, also, but, , come 10th I thought I wouldn't want to become a doctor. Because, , I, I figured that, , if you have to become a good doctor, you would have to spend the next 10 to 12 years in education, which didn't attract me so much. So I thought I'll take the easy way out and I became an engineer.
Puneeth 2:52
That was the easy way out.
Chakri 2:55
It seemed it seemed like that, and I don't think I regret that so much. Even today also, although my parents continue to say that , if I would have become adopted, maybe I would, I would have stayed in my hometown and in going to close to them Hmm.
Puneeth 3:16
You grew up in contours.
Chakri 3:18
Yes, yes. I grew up in London. And I did my engineering there. Then Then I worked with Infosys for a couple of years. Those were times when Narayan Murthy was was was the CEO. So it was a good thing to see. To have exposure to such a, , super institutional organization with very strong value system. Then I did my MBA from Iman door. After that, I worked in investing for four to five years, both on listed equities, unlisted equities, and then started country light back in 2011. With a friend of mine, Nathan, both of us were batchmates and I'm indoor.
Puneeth 4:06
Okay, I'll have to pause you there. You've literally scaled through like 25 years.
Chakri 4:14
like yeah, I think that that's how memory works. Right? , when when? Yeah, when you think back beyond like the last two, three years. It's all super fast forward mode. Wow. I had
Puneeth 4:29
to get passes by and then it doesn't feel like a decade.
Chakri 4:34
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Time really flies by.
Puneeth 4:46
during your engineering days, did you have any pet projects or something that you tinkered around.
Chakri 4:58
projects? No highest , I used to hang out a lot with friends, , watched a lot of movies used to play a lot of games. , I used to play Age of Empires these multicolored like those in
Puneeth 5:12
funny MMO RPGs
Chakri 5:16
Yeah, but that it was not multiplayer, either. Because, , we didn't have internet back then. But I used to play alone nine post the scores on the scoreboard. And those scores were compared in some forums, it was very convoluted. It was back in 2000 2001, when the internet was new, when, , everything was very costly. But But , at the date, I used to love these games, which involve, , building in civilization building an empire, that kind of games, I used to like a lot, which would take a consume many hours of your time, without your knowledge and would be very interesting.
Puneeth 6:04
strategy games.
Chakri 6:05
strategy games. Correct.
Puneeth 6:08
Interesting. That's, that's something that you've been uploaded on LinkedIn, the most. strategy development business strategy.
Chakri 6:17
Yeah, business strategy is very different, I guess. But yeah, I mean, I used to love occupying my mind with something like that involves a lot of depth. And I think games, I found a lot of fun in games other than programming.
Puneeth 6:38
Something that you could just lose your time in? Is the sort of thing.
Chakri 6:43
Correct? Correct. Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Puneeth 6:52
Interesting,
Puneeth 7:09
Talk to me about your time at IIM indoor. We have had a few islands before as well from indoor. Was it formative? Was it fun? Was it
Chakri 7:20
Oh, it was one of the best, it was one of the best experiences of my life, I made some very good friends who have become friends for life. I've learned a lot, it's been perspective changing, coming from a small town with with not enough exposure. So , the mind sort of opened up having a great peer group. , I met my partner, Nathan there. So , in all likelihood, country, like won't have happened, if not for my, my journey. I'm indoor. And, and, and it's been amazing, real fun. Two years, where I think, again, while education was important, and the knowledge that I've gathered there helped, but it was more of the peer group and the friends that I could I could make their that that really changed. , the way I think, the way I I thought after about my career as well. And pretty much everything I mean, and even the instance. So
Puneeth 8:36
the listeners and I can get a feel of what do you mean by having your thinking changed having the way you look at your career change?
Chakri 8:43
So , so one, when I was working with Infosys, I was a software engineer and, and all I understood was, let's say coding, and and I didn't have an understanding how on how the world worked, or how things work. And beyond a point, I got bored of coding, actually. And when I am told, I'm indoor, , I met people from different walks of life and cultures, like some of my friends who are from Delhi, some of my friends, one friend was Lucknow, some of them were from Bombay. And all of them had good, big aspirations and ambitions. So, when you sort of thought about anything, the way you would think starts changing, because , you have multiple opinions about the same thing. So I would say that I have become a more open minded person, trying to understand the why of, , every question that was there, and this was not related to education, it was related to very common Things I was a big movie buff. So, , the friends I had were all, , avid movie watcher. So we would, like, discuss a lot of movies and, and understand how movies work thought through and have, , differences of opinion around those. And that really helped me be more open minded. And the second thing is it's made me a build some risk appetite and mean to try things. During I am indoor, I decided that I never want to join a large organization again, because I realized that, , if you really want to do things, the idea is to learn them. And then and you can learn only when you can see the impact of what you're doing. And that's why I took , a job with a small asset management company, where, , there were five, six people and, , I could actually see the impact of what, what I what I was doing. So these were, like few things like, just to start with, which really changed the way , Ma, I thought before and after.
Puneeth 11:18
Fascinating. Was there a movie that was highly debated, and that kept creeping in to the conversations with your friends?
Chakri 11:28
No, I mean, so, like, again, all of us had different tastes, but , I like some movies like, American History X, then I like movies like so. So matrix was a big favorite among all of us, because it was, again, built on an imaginary world, a programmable world. And, , there were movies like Forbidden Planet, which are these old sci fi movies, which were super old. And so it's really amazing to see some of those, , 1950s 60s science fiction movies, where, , the visualization is poor, but the thought is not poor. It was, , old, but the thought was quite deep. Yeah. Like, if you take Forbidden Planet, for example, , the talk about, , an entire civilization getting wiped out, because of, minds communicating with with each other, and was a lot of Stanley Kubrick movies, they were like, really, really amazing. And then there was some binge watching of TV series, which we used to do, there was this program called 24, which came out during those days. So, , there was a time when I watched, like, I think four seasons of 24 in five days, which is each our one episode, so you can imagine how much of binge watching he has to have
Puneeth 13:18
ready for maritime
Chakri 13:22
says, These are the kinds of things which, which they were doing and I think, , those during those two years out of maybe half of the top 500 movies in IMDb, maybe 303 50 movies, , most of us in the group finished, actually. And, , one regret of that is that, , when these days when I see new movies, , I just don't feel the satisfaction, , that , this is a good movie. I watched a very good movie and that that's one small regret that that has happened that when I was too many good movies in one go
Puneeth 14:09
you're exhausted the classics. Yes. Yeah, I think it I think in year three to five amazing movies come up across the International Film scene.
Chakri 14:26
I mean, yeah, there must be but nothing compared to these some of these golden movies which, , Stanley Kubrick made or which were Alfred Hitchcock movies or or even like James Cameron movies like, like these movies are just completely different league apart like how many movies like Schindler's List Do you see in your life? , it's it's really, really tough to find such ways. I mean, a lot of good movies do come. I'm a big fan of all these Marvel movies also, but it's Nothing gives you like, if you watch the I remember when I watched American History X, I think for a week I was thinking about that movie. I mean that that doesn't happen that usually
Puneeth 15:17
like the description of it that accrues had served three years in prison for a hate crime tries to change the thoughts of his brother Danny was following the same path.
Chakri 15:27
Oh, it's a must. What you should say, really?
Puneeth 15:43
Well, what captivated you about this movie American History X.
Chakri 15:48
Okay, what they know, the dilemma of a brother torn between, you know , are getting sucked into wrong ideals, and trying to put things back and the tragedy of, of it on, on how sometimes, , it gets too late when you want before you realize the mistakes that you have done. And, and in general about society and, how people,, think and how divided society can become and how unfair it can become, to, to a few people. So these were things which really, sort of bothered me a lot during that time. And I was like, quite young. So , it really did affect me a lot. That I thought so much about that movie. Yeah, movie. There's this another movie called Paths of Glory, which is, again, an amazing Stanley Kubrick movie, which really talks about war and the hypocrisy of war and sacrifice. Or it's one of the best again,, it's, like, impossible to have such beautiful movies again, in like, these days, I don't even see anything close to these, these movies. Nice,
Puneeth 17:24
I like the description of this too fascinating. We met on the movie tastes we have, we come from a whole different perspective.
Chakri 17:39
So I'm more attracted to movies, which have a little history and tragic twist to it. Because it sort of really keeps you thinking about it. So I'm not much of a happy ending. When it comes down to
Puneeth 18:07
you're happy ending doesn't have that after effect. Or that cliffhanger.
Chakri 18:13
It makes you think, a movie which puts a question in your mind that that what makes you think and those movies are the ones who tend to remember basically
Puneeth 18:28
Yeah, the challenge is that request so much of intellectual effort
Chakri 18:34
depends like for what reason like sometimes when you do when you watch you are in this mindless action movie mode or comedy movie mode, where you don't want to watch sometimes I avoid movies, , until I'm in the right frame of mind to watch it for example, it took me seven years to watch gangs of wasseypur because I was never in the mood for that kind of movie until I watched it One fine day
Puneeth 19:02
raw so when you're ready your movie will appear
Chakri 19:09
when you're ready you will you will walk you will watch it based on your mood and your your thought at that time but yeah, that's that's out and it's a good way to unwind also watching movies and and and those times you watch any normal movie which which which comes out and your your mind is off everything else for those two, three hours.
Puneeth 19:37
Fascinating. I want to jump off from the massive movies to research that you did in the first six months of country delight.
Chakri 19:50
So again, so it's nothing like that. tell you how we started country. delight So so the idea was that, , we had a bunch of money saved up both me and attend. And we thought that we should build some good dividend based business and, and coming from this entire finance background, , it look on it, once you put things on an Excel sheet, and you you have this fascination to build a good business model. So the thoughts were, that, , animals will multiply, unless also, for example, if you buy a car, it depreciates after four years, you don't have a car, or you want to buy a new car, and the entire value of a car is lost. So but if you're buying animals as an asset for your business, animals multiply, and when they multiply, , you'll get more milk to sell. And that was one of the bigger reasons where we thought that, okay, I have this, like 7080 lakhs rupees of money, how do we sort of, , keep it safe and grow it and build some dividends out of it, and then, , get into this business full time. But, that was a completely wrong line of thought. But we got to three things, right. In the sense that one, we chose a product where demand was not an issue, we chose a promise, which had a lot of appeal. And we chose a business model, where once you get a customer, you hold that customer. So these few things we got really right, but , many things we did also get wronged. And it took us a couple of years to recover from those mistakes. And, , by 2013, there was a point in time where we were thinking whether what to do now, and at that time, broadly, , you we jumped into it full time. And, and, and then from there, it took it took its course of events for us to reach you know , whatever.
Puneeth 22:06
Let's go a little back, because I'm, it just doesn't fit. It's unusual that the two of you who are who not walk me back a little bit in the US. Okay. Okay. Where were you and Nathan really close back at I am indoor? Or was it just a networking? Were you too disconnected right off the bat? Where were you in your life?
Chakri 22:30
So see, we had a relatively small batch of 120 people. Okay, so everyone knew each other pretty decently well. But me and Nathan were not in the same circle. But , post in the word, when we started working here, in Delhi, we sort of connected with each other, and then post marriage, we connected even more, ,
Puneeth 23:06
their listeners
Chakri 23:09
know that marriage, right? Yeah. But both of our wives are from South India. So, , we sort of connected a little more on on that. And once we started meeting regularly, both of us wanted to do something on our own. And then, , the trust was good from day one, , we were comfortable with each other. And slowly, you notice,
Puneeth 23:37
yeah, and fully.
Chakri 23:39
And slowly, we started this initially as a part time essay. And then by 2013, we reached a decision making point on on how to figure this out, because most of the capital that we had invested had had gone down the drain. So then I thought, then we thought that initially, I will get full time into this for a year to two years. And slowly he also came full time, once , things started looking a little more clearer. And we kept it bootstrap for a very long time till 2017. We kept it bootstrapped. And, from 2017, we once we saw some clarity in the business and the business model, we started raising some institutional capital and And fortunately, we've been lucky enough to find the right partners throughout our journey. And fast forward to here.
Puneeth 24:46
Yeah, my audience This looks like a pain story. But wait till we add the colors and to realize what the journey has been. I'm just I'm so curious. How did you do it? land up on cattle as a non appreciating asset to professions. I mean, relevant.
Chakri 25:15
I mean, like, so you have this fascination to build a business you like. So, when you think you want to build a, you know , 1000 crore business with with one or two crore rupees, you keep thinking on how to do it. And, , there was no risk appetite to lose all the money there. So, if there was a good tech idea,, , which was still an option, the whole fear was that, , capital becomes a big moat in such a business, and we didn't want to build a business where, , you your business can destroyed, can get destroyed by someone else, raising capital. So, hence, we sort of thought and thought a lot about it, and figured that, , hey, if you're building a business, it should be something that can give you a dividend. And at those times, , regular milk was at, , 3436 rupees. And when you build this out on an Excel sheet, at at 44 rupees, there were a lot of people willing to buy, and we figured that the milk will get sold on day one. And if you're able to make five to six rupees, a liter, , and the day you do, , let's say 1000 liters or 2000 liters, you can quit your job and, and, , have an income of two lakh rupees So, so that that was the, , logical thought, and it looks like fairly convincing, even the way I'm saying it to you, I think you might also be like, reasonably convinced that, hey, this sounds like a decent plan, right? I hope that
Puneeth 27:06
I'm reading with the 70 likes to come circle back to Windows and find a way back home.
Chakri 27:18
I'm curious. No, not really. So because, and, , I'm from Android, I didn't want to do it. And Andre, I did it in Delhi, because it's a large market, . Because, , there is so many people, so many people with good disposable income, who can pay for the product that you're creating, and the business that you're creating, and the idea was to be genuine and to solve a genuine problem to your, of your customer, essentially, and, and in the process, create a business that can touch lakhs of people or millions of people and create something that has lasting impact that was the thought. And when you think on day one, your your Excel sheets keep telling you that this can be a billion dollar idea in two years. So it takes a lot more time. It took us a lot more time. But yeah, love the thought was to create something big. It was never to go into a retirement kind of a mod or something like that.
Puneeth 28:32
What made you to plunge in with 50 cattles 50 cows if I'm right, and to Bertie,
Chakri 28:38
quiet cows 20 buffaloes and one was 2020.
Puneeth 28:49
I'm curious, what was the dinnertime conversation when you were discussing this plan and your family was around?
Chakri 28:57
family? Around No, no family has been fairly supportive. And the initial days, even during the initial days family as like, without family, family, things wouldn't have worked. And, , I think both our families also loved milk as a product. It's been a part of your lifestyle also. So, , again, there was a lot of, you know , none of us like we're in business. So, , there was a good amount of naivety when all this was being thought through but , most of the conversation was about , how not to , lose all the capital in one go. Will it be say, , like, Is this okay, it's a lot of money that you're putting into this. Will it work out? Most of the discussion was around how it will work out, but there was a lot of enthusiasm around getting, going about it, basically.
Puneeth 30:01
Cuz you're the first I'm cute. I'm just because we're having a comfortable chat here. I'm just wondering, how did your parents react? They were in
Chakri 30:15
for a long time. My parents were really supportive of this, I would say, but for a long time, , my parents felt that, you know , you're wasting all your education by doing something like this, which is completely unrelated. Exactly. What my dad would say, Are you sure about this? Like I never, never discouraging to be very honest. But they said that, , , you will, let's say, if doesn't, doesn't work out, you're losing out on all this education and experience that you've spent the last four, five years building, and you're losing out on a potential career. And they asked, they repeatedly asked me to think twice and thrice about it. But beyond that, they completely respected. , my thought and my decision. And that's been true. Even ,, , when I chose to do engineering over medicine, they wanted me to become a doctor. But they really respected my choice of what I wanted to be, even though, , it might have been, it might have looked nice knife to them are unconvincing to them. So , I think I've been very lucky. There to have parents who could who never questioned beyond a point on on what what I was trying to do.
Puneeth 31:50
Yeah, but the initial hiccups are there listeners, matter where you're starting? up? And what stage of starting up? initial hiccups from family, lots of
Chakri 32:01
hiccups, but But yeah, I mean, see, again, when I hold when I got into it full time, for example, I had a son, , who's, and I thought, if I don't do this, now, maybe I'll not do it again. And just for that insecurity of falling into a rut, I just quit, quit my job and got into this. And, , the really testing times were like, 2015 16, where, , like, you've left your job for two years, nothing is, , really fallen in place. You are always constrained on capital, like trying to put things in order. And you are not clear enough on what you're doing, when you are when you are able to talk to somebody about raising more capital. So those were the real tough times. I mean, it's a relatively easier decision to quit what you're doing and start something in a lot of enthusiasm. But it is really, really tough to persist with it for a long time. And, , whatever little success we've seen as a business, I would say, it's just because we persisted for four years or five years, and we didn't even think of quitting or, or we didn't think, Okay, what will happen if this fails? What will we believe it's pay? The thought was always is that how do you make this work? How do you How can you this
Puneeth 33:43
cost is such a big thing. We have startups in India,
Chakri 33:47
correct? Yeah. So so the worst case scenario that I always felt in my mind is if this business can give me like four or five lakh rupees of salary a month, that's good enough, then , you just, like use the remaining and keep building this up. Like that was the only thought that, , we used to have in this business key, , it should just pay your basic sustenance. And if you have the time, you will build it out. I mean, that was the whole thought process, basically. And the idea never was there that, , we will try this for another six months and shut it down, or one year inserted down that was never there in the mind at all. The idea was how to make this happen, how to get to a point where you are able to manage your sustenance through this business and do this for as long as it takes basically.
Puneeth 34:47
2015 I think you'd made a lot of fascinating errors by then and you're probably burnt out your money by them.
Chakri 34:54
Can you go money was burnt out in 2013 itself.
Puneeth 34:57
Yeah, can you walk us through that phase? where you went from about 7080 lakhs to zero in about a few months worth of time? And how you handle it? Have you bounced
Chakri 35:07
back?
Puneeth 35:09
Have you handled yourself and Nathan? Yeah,
Chakri 35:12
2011 August, we started by 2013, like, all we had was, like one or two machines, which could we could put in a 250 square feet area. And, , which would pack the mill. And, , there used to be 15 to 20 delivery boys who used to come. And, , I still remember it was like 2013, Jan, when I quit. On the first day, when I came to sit there I was, I couldn't find a place to sit, because it was just 250 square feet. And there were like 10 to 15 people around, and there was no air conditioning, I was used to an office with an AC, , coming from, , an investing background. So there was no AC and it was like March, it was starting to get hot. Huh, it's Delhi, this is Delhi in Delhi seat. And to top it up, there was one machine which had an, , compressor. So when you say compressor, it's like this air conditions. Other side. So you have this? Yeah, yeah, the evil brother. So that used to be inside, and I used to sit right ahead of it. And that hot air used to come. So, sorry, it was very, very difficult to digest, , those days, and then we started working with farmers or being moving away from our own animal model. So the idea was, , we couldn't figure out how to get a good quality product. So we gave away our animals, which were like giving less and less well, to farmers. And in exchange for milk. And slowly, , that was the first version of the software which I, we were working on, where I built it out, in, in, in just over a two three day time frame, which used to generate routes for delivery boys, and people used to go and deliver milk. And, and we used to get really tricked by people giving us milk because we had no idea on how this was. But , and and on the other side, customers used to really like feel very disappointed that you know , you're giving a your product quality is falling. And then the whole thought was working backwards from customer key, , how not to have your phone ring from a customer telling that, , you've done a disappointing job today. So the whole journey between 2013 to like 15 to 17 was all about first part was about how to give a product where customers don't have to appreciate you but don't say that you're not doing a bad job, you're doing a bad job. So and it was about , for some time figuring out how the quality of the milk would taste sometimes it was about , how the processing should be done. Sometimes it was about how the , last mile would work and milk should come in time every day in the morning to you. And like these are the building blocks , which sort of you know , help does become a , strong business on the ground. Like given on the worst day of the lockdown during COVID we were able to deliver to 95 96% of our customers that because of these kind of foundations that we had and went through during the earliest days of our business that that that helped us navigate problems with with a lot of ease because you've seen all these things in the early days that there is no delivery boy and you have to deliver the new calling the customer apologizing for for for the delay or you would plan one wonder one route of deliveries a little earlier and pre call the customers the night before they would get a little disappointed saying in that how can you guys like it's not fidelity logo case and a carpet or a comp So, so but but these feedback points , helped us figure out what is right what is most important for the customer and, and slowly, gradually, , within our capability at each stage, solve problems for the customer and give a good product to the customer.
Part 2 transcript
Chakri 0:01
Because you've seen all these things in the early days that , there is no delivery boy. And , you have to deliver the new calling the customer apologizing for for for the delay, or you would plan, , one wonder one route of deliveries a little earlier and pre call the customers the night before they would get a little disappointed saying in that, , how can you guys like, it's not like a logo case and a carpet or a comp. Oh, so but but these feedback points, , helped us figure out what is right what is most important for the customer and, and slowly, gradually, , within our capability at each stage, solve problems for the customer and give a good product to the customer.
Puneeth 0:51
What amazes me about this approach is that you had Kaizen every day, I mean, improve these micro iterative improvement every time somebody rang up the phone and scolded you or just hammered you with a bad feedback,
Chakri 1:08
correct. So, what is it that sounds like, that is the core of our business model, like what we do, everything is about customer feedback. Man now, and we are so obsessed with customer feedback that, , unless the customer, I and when you follow all the key pain points of the customer delight is what comes naturally. I mean, my delight. So the idea is to kill pain points, one by one and one by one and one by one. So the way our business model is built, the way we build our product, like if you take the heat, it's called the desert the heat for a reason. It's because customers said that way. They call it gorgeous, are they and the insight is that they want the heat to taste like the way they make it at home. If you take my mommy, it's called AC Donnie dagi. Because this is what customers told us they told me Danny, when he had chicken, Moto, slow heating karma to hear this matches and even then it should be aroma. They should be beautiful. It should smell your house should smell with ghee when you open the bottle cap of a gay bottle. So these things like they will tell us and we we work on them. Like we work very sincerely and diligently and put in our best effort to really, , just solve the customer's problem. And in the process we've built built a decent brand, which which you'll see today.
Puneeth 2:51
. I'm just Oh, Grace, I think what you just said. I'm just wondering, how many galleys did you have to endure in the feedback? And what was your immediate response? Because I realize your immediate responses, what, let's create a system or let's create something to avoid this in the future. Where you I iterative naturally, or was it? An was another option but to iterate
Chakri 3:21
it's both Punnett. See, you're clear in your mind, we were clear in our mind that our ciabatta business banana tea, okay, so we wanted to create a good good business and a big business. And the idea of what for that is key you don't know as an individual what to do. So customer is telling you what to do. In the end, there was no option either way key It is not that we had a ton of money, which can take you in a very indiscipline direction, where you operate on four different directions out of which two might be completely wrong. And that sort of shaped the fundamentals of how we think. And this comes naturally also this thought process. If when you look at different life cycles and a software that is built, there is a waterfall model, given the different models and the best world that the best way you build a good product is to keep iterating through it. Just build build a zero version I tried build the first build the second build the third, it's really lean Lee really quick and it gives you results. So it makes sense. And that was the only way and Johanna golly Kiva, voto. Er, MATLAB bird that is learning you should not think of it as golly, I'm in it. And that's one if if anyone crosses that barrier of not taking it on your own Go and taking it constructively as valuable inputs to grow your business, then you don't feel it like a colleague, you just feel it that this is an input, you process it, you solve it, so that, , the output is better. And once you keep solving for these inputs, naturally, your output will become the best.
Puneeth 5:25
I'm curious to know, while you are either creating it on a day to day basis, this is the days when you're on the 500 square feet on the ground, what did you say no. And why?
Chakri 5:39
What No, in the sense customer problems,
Puneeth 5:43
yeah, or, or any feedbacks or any.
Chakri 5:48
So, it is not that like so we used to have lots and lots of problems, but you have only very limited money. So you would solve for the problem, which is the top priority. So add in those days, the top priority was add to a good extent of time to give a product which the customer doesn't have to complain about. So, , it meant sometimes solving for quality issues, which are unknown at a farmer level or solving for , a processing issue which we never laid realized about or solving for a cold chain related problem which goes to the customer. So it used to take us months to figure problems out also because it's there are a problem, when you are very limited on capital and there is only one set of things you should do. It will take you a long time, for example, , there was a we used all the, , basic testing equipment and everything that we could use, which was prescribed by, , any good authority and which people from the industry also used to tell us, but I realized beyond a point that we know the best way to understand quality is to taste it. Okay. So, at some point in 2014, I tasted how each adulterant tasted like, like, how does caustic soda taste? How does hydrogen peroxide taste, so I checked whether it can kill you or not before tasting it. But I did have to taste all the adulterants and I put it in milk and then tasted it. And for I think about a three month period. Every day, every sample of milk we used to accept I used to taste whether and decide whether there is a adulterant or not. Okay, so that builds so much sense on product actually, over time. to, to us as a business. And that really helped us yeah, I mean, these kind of things, like really change the way you think. beyond a point.
Puneeth 8:06
My God you train your tongue become sort of like a milk detector.
Chakri 8:13
I had to had to I had to because we we couldn't understand at that time. That how where is the problem? Okay, so you had to, like, break down the problem to the most fundamental level and understand how it because the available technology was not able to tell us whether it's the quality testing equipment that were there at that point in time, or the knowledge that we had at that point in time. So we had and the problem needed to get solved. So the only like, quick solution that was there at that time was this basically. So so , we had to do it, there was an option
Unknown 8:59
Wow.
Puneeth 9:01
That's such a cool thing to add to one's resume palette trained to.
Chakri 9:10
Yeah, but yeah, if your device later on when we were seeing what is the testing technology that is available, okay. So if a machine works or not, okay, then also this thing held a lot. K, , how's the product tasting and how's the machine detecting adulteration? And then, you know , that really helps you identify what is working better, what is not working better. So it had a lot of use cases that that came came over time. Basically.
Puneeth 9:51
I've never realized tongue as an asset to a business but now I get to see it.
Chakri 9:57
So now fortunately, , we have Very good technology that is in place, everything is fully automated, everything is real time. We as and when a product gets tested, I, , any of us can see it on our laptop, sitting here on how the product is solved and delivered. But these were the very, very initial days where, , there was not much knowledge or understanding or, , technology available to solve for these problems.
Puneeth 10:33
Yeah, makes makes complete sense. I think it's, it's, you've got this sort of whatever it takes mindset. And,
Chakri 10:40
yeah, that's true. And both of us like both me and Nathan have, like, I think that's why we sort of could make it like till here, at least otherwise, we would have long perished without time. Without that kind of thought process of not giving up
Puneeth 11:03
from your training of your palate, let's jump in to these testing kit that you devised. How did that idea image? Why was a need for something like that?
Chakri 11:17
Again, it's a consumer first insight for us basically, see, what happened was we used to we had a good product by then we were very confident, and if if customers were tasting the product, they were saying this is a this is the best product that I can have. So, that problem got figured out now, the idea was how to make people try the product. And again, talking to customers helped a lot on that end customers told that why should I believe you Muslim mokuba, cumin OKR, aka Duda, Mata avocado puree or cobalt bagnato theory. So then the thought was key, , what we do at a farmer level? why not bring it to the customer? I, we and and but but you can't bring the entire , two lakh rupee or five lakh rupee mill testing machine to the customer. So, we thought that, , what are the simpler ways of testing milk and this milk it was there, it's a DR do develop the milk it and we were confident of what we were giving to our customer. So what we essentially did was just give the customer the tools to verify it. And that sort of like went really viral and sort of , made as a decent brand to which achieved Allah which he achieved a lot of customer love, essentially.
Puneeth 12:59
Because I was wondering, a typical scientist has the similar problem, wherein they have something that's proven by their, or they have a thesis or they have a hypothesis, and they want to demonstrate it. And the racket is a simple example that a common man can understand
Chakri 13:21
or an experiment.
Puneeth 13:23
How did you bump into this Dr. Do?
Chakri 13:28
very commonly, it's very commonly available, everyone it was there for 10 years, it was not that we saw something that was not there at all. We just applied it by giving the power to the consumer to to test it at their home, basically, this is this technology
Puneeth 13:48
existed for 10 years, but it's overlooked.
Chakri 13:51
Yeah, so people use it at the farmer level, essentially to test for the milk. That was the use case with which this was made. But But no one gave it gave this to the customer. And we were the first ones to do it because we were confident of the product that we had, which we spend so much time figuring out building and the business model that we had. So we thought that what, why be afraid when you, you you're doing you have the best product.
Puneeth 14:28
What I love about country delight is it's doing what Apple and Samsung and Amazon are doing in tech world. It's creating a walled garden or an ecosystem
Chakri 14:42
with very kind words of you. I hope we we live up to this kind of expectation.
Puneeth 14:54
Yeah, I love how you have structured your business. I think In a previous interview with matrix ventures, you meant they mentioned the deep moat, but now I realized that milk as the gateway product, once the customer is a, you have them captivated into multiple products
Chakri 15:15
correct. And you have a very clear brand promise from a customer point of view, where you are giving a fundamentally better product that the customer can can consume, and you have a brand promise, which is very clear that , whatever country delight gives is the best possible quality product at the lowest possible price and directly to your doorstep. So quality as a brand promises what we are trying to communicate to our customers and natural wellness is what our customers want. And the vision of the brand is also again customer driven. Customers want a natural natural lifestyle or a minimal process product as a as part of their lifestyle today. And what we are thinking today is, is that you live in a city in an apartment and , the entire countryside is brought to your doorstep every morning by country like that, that is what we are trying to do to all our customers.
Puneeth 16:27
Talk to me about your belief that businesses should make money.
Chakri 16:33
Yeah, there is no other way, eventually they should I mean, I get is understandable. If If, if for a while to achieve a goal, or to to kill competition, , if you're not profitable as a business, but fundamentally, , if you are able, you will be able to deliver shareholder value, if you are able to make money as a business. And if you're able to generate better returns on the capital that you're taking from your investors, or, or if you're investing your money. And the whole thought of contrary delight is what came from on how to build 1000 crore business with a two crore capital. I mean, that was the thought I mean, even if it takes 10 years or 15 years, but that was the original thought. So when you're thinking like that, finally, you should be able to deliver a good product to your customer in a great within a promise that is suitable to the customer, but also generate some, , earnings out of it, which you which your shareholders who are investing in you, as a business should get back Finally, that is the only valuation is a method to measure potential earnings. But there should be earnings visible someday, for a business to sort of make sense. And, and if what we have consciously always thought is again, coming a little bit from a conservative thought process is that if you have to give money back into through earnings, or if you should know how it has to be done. So the approach we have taken is, whenever we would, let's say burn some money, at least as as, as a business, we should be clear that where is the path to profitability? How will you generate earnings? What earnings will you generate? And hence, , will this make sense or not? And whenever the answer was? No, I don't understand this. The option would be to not take that kind of a bond decision.
Puneeth 18:55
Saying every expense has to be justified by a business,
Chakri 18:59
it should be a business goal. And if you're, if you're not able to visualize the impact of it, you don't have to, like, exactly measure it. It's like thinking about what will happen because there are many scenarios possible. The idea is to visualize and the way to visualize what we to experiment took the AV test and to do small things when you're trying to , make some spend trial smaller version of it. See if it is working, build a thesis around it, and then try the larger version of it. So that you're not wasting too much money and figuring out that, hey, we took the wrong approach.
Puneeth 19:43
Wherever you when you realized you had the right approach or the right. business model. You saw the money coming in and you realized now's the time to raise money.
Chakri 19:56
Oh, I mean, we were almost there. It was almost clear, the thing was, like you're seeing steady customer growth, you're still seeing steady revenue growth in the business, or you were seeing profitability visible, like, you were able to draw out some salary for yourself. So then it started becoming clear that, , this is a business that, , that can scale now. And fortunately, , during those days, , arrives reached out to us again. So it was an inbound, not an outbound actually. And they saw what we were doing, they really liked it. And we spent, they spent a couple of months understanding, and then things got comfortable, and they invested. And since then every investor, whether it's oreilles, or matrix or or elevation, these have been very organic journeys, where, , we knew each other for a year, , they were tracking us very regularly. And when the point of investing came, it was a very simple, easy decision for for all of us.
Puneeth 21:27
What fascinated me was that you were, you went from, wait, I think I'm gonna pause this revenue question. How long did it take before you started drawing a salary from country to line?
Chakri 21:43
Oh, like, so we were drawing on and off till 2017. So I, in 2014, I drew some salary in 2015, we do some salary in 2016, also type and so on. And also, we would reach a point where we were drawing some salary, and then we would try to scale the business a little more. So there would be a few months without salary. But then again, we would reach a point where we were drawing salary, so it was more on On that note, but after we raise some institutional money, we were comfortably able to draw salary on a monthly basis. That is,
Puneeth 22:28
rounds. It was it was like a fluctuating. It was like, a minor feast. Kind of a mode of
Chakri 22:35
not, waste is a very big word. Yeah. But yeah,
Puneeth 22:40
please.
Chakri 22:43
Yeah, it looked like that. It was basic sustenance, income more than anything.
Puneeth 22:52
So it was like a five or seven years.
Chakri 22:57
Yeah, for us, we call it for four solid years where this thing was a very regular occurrence.
Puneeth 23:08
Wow. Audience, , this keeps coming again. And again, it takes a good 1000 days to see a business really show its colors. And I think four years is, I think, chakra, you're better off to explain this. That takes four to five, six years. Yeah,
Chakri 23:29
absolutely. Absolute.
Puneeth 23:33
Five years.
Chakri 23:35
Absolutely. I mean, see, we reached six crores revenue in first six years. And we grow 60 times after that in the next three years. So you can understand how how things work, and how much time things take for you to understand and learn like, like I only if you're planning if anyone is looking to start a business, you should give three to five years of your life, not not one year, not two years, it's better not to take that leap. If you're thinking I'll do it for a year or two, it I would say five years is what, , one should think and, and more more, mostly, I mean, if if you're financially decently planned, and if you have thought through this from a time point of view, and if your family is fully with you, chances are very high that you will see success in one form or the other. I mean, for us, we would have been happy. If we were able to draw highlights salary a month, eventually also that is also a decently good, successful scenario. Even if, let's say we didn't get funded, , but, but if you're doing the right things more often than not in today, the ecosystem is so vibrant, Back in 1970s 80s founders would have had to slog for 15 to 20 years to build 100 200 crore business, not today we have such a beautiful ecosystem where, , angel investors come in and, , back a vision or an idea, , you have with venture capital funds right from seed stage to series A to Series B to series, who take good venture risks to toe to toe back, , people with thought and commitment. So, I mean, this is a great time to the I don't think there is ever a better time than this to to try things and to , especially if you're young , spend five years of your life and and the learnings are also insane, immense, I mean, you will have to dawn so many hats that and learn so much on on on on basic first principles that , you you will be far wiser person once you go through something like this.
Puneeth 26:12
I can't agree more. Talk to us about because you went from zero to six crores in from 2011 to 17. And you went from six close to 350 crores from 17 to 2020. Talk to me, what? What if? I mean, what did you rev up? What did you dial up in terms of business? And what did you dial down? to scale this quickly?
Chakri 26:47
No, I think few few things. One, we understood what we were doing, we knew what we were doing very clearly. So that was very important. And, and the idea was always to keep your failures as small as possible. Like, whenever there is some new experiment that you're doing, spend as little as possible on it, get get a better sense on it, do it iterate, iterate, until you get more comfortable, and once you're comfortable, then, , sort of scale it up in a bigger way. So at least fortunately, touchwood till now that has really worked for us. And, and and again, like strong tech thinking also has helped us a lot. And , to solve problems at scale, , you should invest in tech to, to sort of think that how do I do this 1000 times or at 100 times level. And tech plays a huge role in that. So to be a very tech first or tech driven thinking in your entire business, like not only you as a founder or or the entire team should start thinking tech first and solving problems. And then if it's not soluble, or if it's too expensive, or if it's going to take too much time, then figure out how to solve it otherwise.
Puneeth 28:29
I have a few more questions before we wrap but first, talk to us about bunnies and the journey of the entire the struggles of getting money, right?
Chakri 28:45
Paneer was a very tricky product in the sense that , the customer wanted money to be soft. And at the same time, they didn't want it to be too soft. And the money making processes by for is is quite manual. So getting it consistently was was very, very tough. And when you see punished, it's one of the most adulterated products because the open pannier market, people God knows what it is like really made with. But but it is soft, basically that is that is one because it is soaked in a liquid and when when you buy it, you're buying it in a very moist format. But also the problem that we were trying to solve for was one finding a natural additive to the product where you have to you don't have to add a synthetic substance to break the product to get the softness and texture. So then again, it will all again consumer feedback base to consumer would say that it is too soft or it is too hard. And then sometimes it could be about working on the packaging. Sometimes it could be working on the pressure with which you press funny, or sometimes it would be related to the temperature to which you hate. So it took us like six to seven months to sort of figure out the right way, because there were too many variables at play. To do it, but but again, it headed way way with whatever we've been able to do. It's only because of purely customer feedback that that that helped us get it right.
Puneeth 30:36
Do you have an r&d department that does this? Chakri 30:49
So again, the idea is to bring structure to it earlier, there was not but today, we have a team that is working on this, we have a model of iterating through our products, we haven't, it's a completely we're making it into a process completely where innovation engine is being built within the business that can keep churning out these beautiful products in a very consumer first thought process. So while , I agree that in your initial days, it's not possible to have an r&d department and all as your business scale. And the ambition that we have is to launch many, many products, not we are entering fruits and vegetables, we're doing cold pressed oils, we're doing grains, we're doing spices, so we need to have an internal engine that sort of keeps churning these products out, while retaining the soul of the brand. So so so we are currently in the process of fully streamlining it to keep rolling out many, many products every year.
Puneeth 32:02
How do you say no to a product that doesn't work with the soul of the company? If you have
Chakri 32:10
so Jesus is one product category, which we've been trying to crack, which we couldn't crack till now. Again, see, it's it's customer feedback driven? If 80% of our customers don't like a product, we don't launch it, basically. And yeah, I mean, people have to like 80% of your customers should like your product. Otherwise, there is no point even launching that product and getting a product right is a function of getting its quality and taste right, getting it getting its price right, and being able to educate your customer about the product. So unless we get our internal iterations right to solve for these problems, we don't launch so and and unfortunately, we've not been able to crack this problem and juices so far, because what the customer expects in the mind is a price point below like 40 rupees 40 to 50 rupees Max and good quality like 100% natural juice is not we are not able to build a product at anything less than 60 to 80 rupees my bare minimum is 60 rupees. So, we have not gone ahead with it and we are we are still trying we are working on on what what new ways we can what new approach we can take to solve for these problems but but that's what it is. And if you get your price wrong, then the product goes wrong if you get your product wrong, then also the product goes wrong. If you get your communication wrong, then also the product goes wrong. So you have to keep figuring out these levers on how to give a good product to the customer.
Puneeth 34:16
Tell me what are you working on right now which is very, which is exciting you the most.
Chakri 34:33
So we are launching fruits and vegetables in country delight. It's an such an amazing experience. figuring out what in this has 100 SKUs in that. So figuring out what people like about carrots or tomatoes or apples, or pomegranate or pumpkin or jackfruit like all these things like kind and a lot of insights are flowing into the business and figuring out how to get the right unit economics for this. And there is a clear customer promise that is possible where, , you are able to give superior quality product to your customer, which consumers genuinely love. And, and it's really, really exciting as we had building this category out for our customers and, and the idea of, , building this again, umbrella brand, which stands for natural wellness, where , all products associated with, , purity or freshness, or, minimal processing this old country way of thinking. And it's super exciting to , expand the scope of the brand into these many, many products and show the power of the business model that we've been working on for such a long time.
Puneeth 36:00
Fascinating. I'm amazed to know, the kind of training your palate is getting, you build 100 SKU
Chakri 36:07
Yeah, I'm I'm eating like lots of fruits and vegetables for the first time.
Puneeth 36:16
Gosh, there's so much more to talk about unit economics IoT.
Chakri 36:21
I love the IoT is your MPI it's amazing stuff and
Puneeth 36:26
I think we should do sometime soon. Got a final question. What is the impact chakra that you are seeking to make through country delight?
Chakri 36:46
we've been thinking, so at a at a personal level, ,, what keeps me very satisfied is , every conscustomer using country delight and finding it useful in their lives, that is like, what excites me a lot. And at a brand level, what we are trying to see and the purpose of country delight we are figuring out as, as customers as individuals, none of us think for ourselves that we want to live 100 years. But as a brand, we want to think that every customer consuming country delight product should live 100 years and we want to keep building these products that can keep you delighted when you taste them and make you live as long as 100 years and more
Puneeth 37:44
fascinating from natural freshness to longevity driven company. Fascinating. I really appreciate how the common milk vocabulary has entered in your, in the way you speak from a perishable relationship to churning out ideas.
Chakri 38:07
Okay, that was completely unintentional. But yeah,
Puneeth 38:12
yeah. You've soaked in all the this has been a delightful conversation, Zachary.
Chakri 38:21
Thanks a lot for Nate. It's been a pleasure speaking with you, and sharing my experiences and our journey in country delight. And it's it's a passion of mine that, , there's so much so much that I have gotten through this
Puneeth 38:40
Chakri 38:50
No, no, it's a passion of mine. That, that, , I have been privileged to, , see this journey in the last 10 years and have seen great support from the ecosystem. And I feel it's my minimum obligation to share some of the difficult times in our journey, which can give some help and perspective to someone who's starting up. And hopefully, if if I can help even one person in that, it gives me a feeling of, , satisfaction and giving back for what I have been privileged to receive.
Puneeth 39:36
I can't agree more. On that note, boys and girls, go and make some Galata!