This bonus episode features Founders Institute Bangalore. We discuss pre-seed accelerator, product-founder-market fit, the Corona opportunity, startup framework, idea validation and much more!
This bonus episode features Founders Institute Bangalore. We discuss pre-seed accelerator, Product-founder-market fit, the Corona opportunity, startup framework, idea validation and much more!
Official deadline is Sunday 21 June ... Today!
Apply asap to Bangalore to get advantage of early deadline ( $399 instead of $499 )
https://fi.co/apply/Bangalore
Female founder fellowship
http://fi.co/FFF
Reach Vadiraj- vadiraj.aralappanavar@fichapter.com
Facebook - Founder Institute, Bangalore chapter @fibangalore
Image credits: Imagebazaar.com
Puneeth Suraana 0:00
You have an idea which you think is relevant right now. Something like found Institute has a really good system for you to channelize your initial energy or initial ideas in place. That is why I think this is a this is a product market fit absolutely mango in India right now. Hello and welcome. This is Puneeth Suraana and you are listening to the Galata podcast. Galata is a word from the Indian language Canada. That means the noise caused by a ruckus This podcast is about starting up while you're still in college, testing ideas, creating a team building something worthwhile and adding value to other people's lives. Join us as we discuss the thrill of earning your first buck tackling uncertainties overcoming obstacles and delighting others most of all the Galata podcast is about seeking, understanding and implementing so you can deliver on your audacious promise. This is a special episode this we are going to be talking about an institute which I have come across and which I think is going to be really valuable, especially for those of you who are in the first thousand days of their venture. There are so many aspects that your mind is getting boggled about the Coronavirus, the situation of recession, the fact that a lot of your money is stuck or a lot of people that you are not able to pay. There's all this confusion happening. So much of chaos, so much of pressure on each of us as entrepreneurs. In all of this. I think this conversation would give you a light of something which would make your life easier, especially post Coronavirus post the COVID scene with
Vadiraj 2:00
Get to the conversation in a moment. But first, here's a message from our guest. Do you know that some of the best technology companies got formed during the earlier recession? Yes, companies like Airbnb, WhatsApp, Uber and Instagram were founded between 2008 to 2009. Now you have an opportunity to formulate and take your idea to the next stage by joining founders Institute. ephi is the world's largest pre seed accelerator with presence across 185 plus cities 4500 plus successful ventures of which 900 million has been raised so far from its cohorts, and 45 of them have been acquired. We are now launching mango chapters founder Institute where people like you and founders like you can take the benefit and giants ephi it has an experience across 12 plus years with a structured process of creating technology ventures and grow it you also have an opportunity to learn and get mentored by the leading mentors. Also you can get benefited from the shared equity collective from your coats. I also have a special fellowships to the COVID solutions and women intrapreneur fellowship you can be a part of either early launch stage or growth stage startup. Depending on your context please have a look@ Fi.co/apply/Bangalore
Puneeth Suraana 3:14
We are joining a conversation with a two time entrepreneur at present the mentor at hundredwatts. tech, the director of Indic inspiration the Chief Product Officer of Onn bikes, an individual who's passionate about tennis and Hindustani classical music having vast experience in industries like FinTech, retech, shared mobility, digital IoT, commerce, ecosystems and entrepreneurship. He is the director of founders Institute Bangalore chapter. Vadiraj Arlanappavar while I was riding to my guests place, Yes, this is an in person interview the first after COVID I was shocked looking at Bank Our roads are abandoned. There's a lot of construction work, which is just abandoned. It felt like a ghost city to me. And I'm happy that the guest is so hospitable that I, back to my senses and back to Bangalore, before we come to the meat of the conversation. What's it like already? What changes do you observe post COVID for especially these new entrepreneurs or the entrepreneurs who are just in the first thousand days? First of all, I think, you know, we are still not in post COVID, post COVID is still months away, I would say. But having said that, I think you know, what COVID has taught a lot of humility. I mean, I think a lot of reality that needs to sink in to the whole world, people as well as the world or the world leaders should take, I would say cognizance of that fact. And I hope but we know that sanity comes in and that's with respect to covert what you saw. I mean, you know, that when roads abandoned streets, possibly I think, you know, we're early days. I mean, I think things will become normal. I'm sure like, you know, I think in few months, I think as soon as the first signs of
Vadiraj 5:00
biaxin getting there, I think, you know, things will start becoming alright. But coming to the entrepreneurial things, I mean, you know, I think, going back by example, so what has happened, the best of the companies that got formed our independence, my mind races back to, I would say, 2008 2009, I would say, Airbnb and companies like that got formed during those times, why it is apt to have ideas kind of get formulated during these times, it will give a lot of reality, a lot of business model gets changed a lot of things, what used to be normal, I think, you know, those assumptions get changed. And I feel I think, you know, post covert as we make all I think, you know, there will be new problems. And for those new problems, there will be new, there will have to be new solutions, and the business models that have worked earlier will undergo a change. And that that brings to the point that no, I think companies need to kind of think through newer models, never thought processes, newer unit economics and things like that. And there are several segments I mean, getting disrupted sometimes Men have suddenly seen spike of demand I mean even in this during COVID times you would have seen suddenly hyper local grocery which was kind of subdued and suddenly it in it has become like, you know, one of the most popular segments, lot of investments that are happening elearning i think you know, is kind of blasting from the rooftops, a lot of interest. I mean, I think you can see teachers getting onto iPads and using digital means to teach I mean, I have seen many images where I think they are making attempts to kind of use their camera to teach very, very interesting these are all I would say your problems and that's what is new, that's a newer problem a teacher who has not done a online video and was the seeing a video now has to create a video and a pre kg nursery guys for standard guys who have to be taught online, it brings its own set of problems. I mean, I think for families, but that that that is the new reality. I mean, I think in terms of online teaching, so online companies who are into teaching and ado, take things out of There's a huge interest suddenly, if you see, I think, you know that carriers Airtel or Jio , I mean, what has happened with you in the last one month is nothing short of spectacular things. I mean, I, if you look at it in COVID times, they have been able to raise six on mobile investments. And for the reasons Yes, I mean, I think and the two in a, I mean, during the COVID, that you can talk where it's very depressing, but I think you know, there are marquee ministers, Facebook company, kind of companies are investing I mean, that that according to me, again, fits into the classic definition of newer opportunity, newer problem to be solved. And for a country like India, I think, you know, a captive country which requires digital path to to its growth and, you know, to make all these learnings, commerce to be available, I think, you know, Joe kind of a carrier certainly is very interesting. And along with it, I mean, other carriers like Airtel is getting a lot of interest in here that Google is interested to come back, they're talking about Investing in order form. I think, you know, Amazon, we hear that they want to be interested in Airtel would we have imagined something like this two months back. No, I think right. So any any problem of that sort, Black Swan kind of event seminar, if you have to kind of talk in slightly the financial world, I mean, a black swan is an event where it happens. I mean, once in a lifetime or twice in a lifetime, I think, you know, and possibly the earlier ones, what we saw in 2008. Before that much earlier, each one of them has brought disruptions and for entrepreneurs, all these are opportune moments, I mean, are to kind of sense those disruptions, take those disruptions, pick those finer aspects where those new problems are there and find solutions like healthcare. I mean, I certainly think there are I mean, you know, there are actually accelerators who are actually focused on getting healthcare solutions. Government of India is finding things to kind of say that, you know, they're inviting applications for people to come and give applications and their ideas to solve healthcare problems in India. And all of these are actually potential opportunities for potential founders or potential entrepreneurs who want to be intrapreneurs or who are already intrapreneurs who are doing something and they need to kind of either pivot or if they're lucky, they may be already in the healthcare space or elearning space, it gives a amazing runway and a path to grow. And founders Institute, I think, you know, is one of the tools and very perfectly fitting for those guys who, who either have a thought who have an idea and who are passionate about taking that idea further, or we're already doing something who already have a venture but now they're trying to kind of scale it perfectly fits that segment of pre seed stage company and how not to do mistakes to take to that path of success is what i think you know, the whole program of founders Institute is about and then very glad that we are launching this in Bangalore and for a capital crowd and city like Bangalore which is thriving and enterpreneurship I think it's a perfect segment.
Puneeth Suraana 10:02
A decade back, there's nothing called as B plan or startups. That was the buzz. But now in all these colleges, there's so many events, especially if you guys are on meetup you're on there to compete.com, which we have spoken about earlier on the episodes, you realize that there's so many beep land competitions happening, so many startup meetups happening. Interestingly, that is where I think an entrepreneur or somebody or wannabe entrepreneur is finding the roots to figure out where and what to do. And this is an entire ecosystem of VCs. Some of venture capitalists are vulture capitalists. And they have become sort of the sage by the stage kind of a thing when they are the guide by your side kind of a model. It's very unorganized right now. And that's where I was really happy. That's why I think we're going to talk about founders In this episode, because it's an organization that comes in at the right time when a wannabe entrepreneur needs it. The most. They are the most last, especially in the initial stage, they have a lot of energy they have, they have cash in hand, they have this zeal, the desert, initial enthusiasm, enthusiasm to just push through this a huge Cliff where a lot of drop off right after that initial rush of the idea goes or Absolutely. And this is where foreign Stute captures, that says and gives them an ecosystem to build something. And that's why I like it, because it's pre seed, because that's a new term that you and I have come.
Vadiraj 11:33
Okay, I think and I will make it more simpler for the audience as well. I think, you know, as you as you rightly said, it's a very cluttered space, I think it's very important to kind of segment the whole thing of the and that you need to segment that in the life cycle of an entrepreneur, right. And you know, anybody who wants to become an entrepreneur, either he should be passionate about something, or he has a problem in Android. He wants to take it further. And when that happens, I think you know, this whole stage of proceed See Angel, like, you know, and there are terminologies like product market fit. I mean, there's something called as founder market fit as well. I think these are all kind of buzzwords, one should be aware. But I think, you know, these are all they fit into the whole ecosystem of how companies get formed, right. So I think what pre seed means is at a stage where I think, you know, a person has some weak conception, an idea, but he's a very passionate founder, he himself is very committed to do something, but he has a idea, but he may not be sure whether that idea is worth all his efforts, or whether it's a wrong I mean, right problem to solve. I mean, or other sometimes founders out there who are especially it happens with tech geeks where they already have solutions and they retro try to retrofit solutions into problems. First fitting it and i think you know, that also needs to be eliminated as well. And pre seed stage is at that stage where I think you know, person has an idea. I mean, he might, you might be one still working, you may you might be still employed and wants to connect have given a thought to kind of whether it is worth to actually concentrate and see whether that is a worth the problem to be solved. And that's what happens during the pre seed stage accelerator like founders Institute, the core belief in founders Institute, by the way, is the founder, the person, I think, and we lay a lot of emphasis on the person itself more than the idea or the process, because that happens later. If a founder is committed and wanting to do, it might be his original idea, or during the process, he might change the idea and pivot. Or he might meet potential founders who have greater ideas and they need to collaborate and do a lot of times that has happened during the programs as well. So what happens is during the pre stage is there may be founders who have already come out of their employment and start something or there may be guys who want to give it a thought and they can run this program even along with their employment because it's a weekly program post like Monday evenings and all that and what it does is whole aspect about idea is based on what is the vision of what you're trying to do, and I mean It actually broadens it further and abstracts it further to say that what goal in humanity does it want to solve? I mean, it's like, no, there are un sustainability goals. And it actually says that, okay, this problem fits into their overall, it can be sustainability of cities, sustainable healthcare, it ties up the oral vision to your idea, then next stage is about validation of the whole idea, you know, in terms of if this idea is there, how big it can be, how far it can scale? And if it has to be successful, what ecosystem thing needs to be ready? Is it too far stretched an idea at the current moment? Because a lot of times successes of ideas ideas may be great, but the timings may be wrong. I mean, you know, so I think it eliminates that bias of percentage, whether the probability whether it's the right timing or not, then after the validation stages, I mean, no, I think it goes through the whole stages of building if and mostly thing you know, these are tech based products, which I mean, a lot of founders come in and where technology is one of the levers to solve a problem then to take those steps. I mean, what are those verticals? is a minimal viable product that needs to be built and that needs to be tested with the market? How do we create these markets? How do we go to the market? I mean, how do we validate that with the small segment of a market? Once you do that, I mean, I you talk about the whole marketing, branding, I mean, aspects of you have that stage? And what are the aspects that you need to consider if you are to actually go to market plan, and then you actually come to the whole cycles of like, you know, validating that product, whatever you have in mind. I mean, no, I think you are actually not validating that with the segment of customers who would be interesting, would be interested to work would be interested to pay, and if they are interested to pay, how much they're ready to pay. So all of these elements are done as a part of the program. And not just yourself, but you're doing it with a shared cohort of people. And there will be shared shared learning, which is again supported by some of the best mentors for that whole cohort. And these mentors are global leaders who, who have created companies who have created scale were created to see nificant things in their own journeys, I mean ob tech companies, we technologies, we businessmen, we can be domain specialists, what they do is they remove that bias in the founders. And they would do that angle of what it should not do. I mean from their learnings, and I think that's a great mentor network, which is a mean, which is a supporting ecosystem model provides for the other young founders during that program. It's only 30 35% of them actually graduate in terms of the program. And those 35% are actually now ready to actually go for the next level of growth. There is a program called as a founding lab. And founding lab is an initiative to actually help post program of this four months to be now funding ready. I mean, random and funding ready is a very different aspect of creating a venture, you know, creating a real venture, but now you're validated, you got the first set of customers, you also have a unit economics model in place. I mean, you know, in whatever form shape and depending on the industry and all that. Now you're getting funding ready? And what are those aspects required for funding ready? Which kind of investors are ready? I mean, no, you should approach for if you're wanting What are those elements? How should you do the pitching for that? What will be the typical questions? What should be your readiness towards end of term sheets and things like that? I mean, what terms you should be flexible with, I mean, you know, some of the aspects of structuring of the company, I mean, how the company should be structured.
Puneeth Suraana 17:25
That's where colleges start. Absolutely no, the stage that you just mentioned, because I've gone through BB and me and I realized that is where we start wearing all these T cells that have come up across the country, they directly take you through a canvas model, and then you go to the pitch. Exactly right. And there's a huge gap in between that a founder or a team hasn't thought through. Absolutely. And, interestingly, in these pitching rounds, because I, the listeners know this that I have gone through about 40 pitches and you've talked about how but there's a huge gap between what you just said mentor which is a very structured process. And I see a lot of these colleges having MBA in entrepreneurship, MBA in family business and all of these, but they are not able to crack it. They're still figuring it out, especially in the college that I have been through across India from items to IITs to an IDS and even regionally colleges, they're still trying to see if they could get an experienced entrepreneur and make him force him in a classroom scenario. And it doesn't really match. Because after the first three classes, he's out of his stories, and he's not able to get the curriculum relevant to the audience. He isn't properly trained as a trainer or teacher and this huge gap that's and the bra and the model breaks. Yeah, even the ecers across the country that that's a bad scenario that I'm noticing. They have one or two events across the year, which is a pitch event. Yeah. Where you just miss out on all these elements of that you that somebody to think through or validate. Absolutely.
Vadiraj 18:56
I mean, you know, it's it's more than validation. I think, you know, in this program, it is not pitching comes much later recommend in terms of what you're doing whether it's the right problem to solve actually more than the mentor setting mentors Act says actually the channeling the and directing it because they already have their own proof systems what they would have learned by their experiences like no like for example, there will be serial entrepreneur who has created companies would build products technology products or somebody that may be a marketer who has scaled. So, when you hear from them and apply it to your own concept or thought what they will do is actually they will make you do all of that and when you before come to the next level of what you call as we have something called as founder source founder sources essentially I think the mentors time with the founder for their specific problems and when he is given a task to do you, like for example, it could be about some inputs about a market segment, whom you are going behind. So inputs on that you wouldn't want to gather, the founder needs to do all that hard work. It is not just a classroom session. He actually during this stage is getting ready to come and see Start a venture and put his time and efforts for the next sector. And he's the guy who's actually going to be doing it. And let me know he alone may do it, he may try to get another one or two co founders. And that's what this program tells you also about that, whether I mean, I'm usually what we prescribe is it's ideally three or four co founders with complementary skills who come and create a venture for idea, okay? Because, you know, usually first time entrepreneurs, they think that, you know, everything can be handled alone, but that's, it's a very, very difficult and complex task. So a lot of times, I think a lot of effort actually, in these programs are actually the real real efforts that we know the founder actually puts in, and he needs to do and that's where a lot of times the realization and that's when I say it's less than 35% guys who graduate is because a lot of them they the proof checks happened during this process where they themselves realize that either My idea was wrong, but or maybe the execution and the business model is wrong or the market is not ready. I mean, you know, anything. And all these are very possible things, you can create products, I mean no which are very, very, very early stage than what the market adoption cycles. I mean, I can talk about myself my own examples where we were trying to disrupt mobile software mobile products way back in 2004 or five times were way early, then the market cycles that started five, six years. Same thing with IoT, which I mean, what we were trying to do in 2011 12. But the real adoption cycles happen later. And it's, it's very common, and I think, you know, that realization, if it comes and somebody is there to advise and guide you along, that is the best thing that can happen.
Puneeth Suraana 21:37
The reason this is relevant for all the listeners is because a police in the US they have measured it, where in the failure rate of startups is still one in 25 startups survive a decade, the failure rate is really, really high. In India, it's even more higher because the ecosystem is still not that firmly in place. We're still figuring out a lot of things. Now, this doesn't eliminate the failure rate. However, what I think something like founders and still does really well is it takes all that initial energy, all that initial Jewish right to build something and channelize it through a system, which makes it impactful, which makes it powerful. I think that is one of the key reasons why we're featuring founders ensued in this special episode, because I want you to understand, because when I was in college, we did not have a system like this. We're just opening up this two to three years. This is actually in your back as well still relevant in most colleges, wherein we are just now opening up to the ideas of getting VCs in our college is talking about money, getting on the cross talk about things and we have no idea of how to connect or how to build things. And that is why it's relevant because these individuals, especially these youngsters were in college who are freshers who have this idea and they're pushing it far away thinking I'm going to get some corpus in Yeah, I'm going to say Up, when I'm going to hit 30, I'm going to be able to start like, No, no, no, no, no, you have an idea which you think is relevant right now, something like found Institute has a really good system for you to channelize your initial energy or initial ideas in place. That is why I think this is a this is a product market fit. Nice mango in India right now. Okay.
Vadiraj 23:23
use that terminology of product market fit from that angle in the current context. And that is a very apt paradox and say to say that, because some, some platform like this is very relevant. I mean, I think, India, a lot of entrepreneurs who are getting aware of intrapreneur and enterpreneurship want to be doing that a lot of problems are there to be solved. I mean, writing the right needs a real structured framework to kind of go through that and that's what we aim to do anything with the belief that founder is a key lever for doing that and is provided and also based on own statistics, I think a lot of times a lot of ventures fail is because they have not gone the right structured phase of doing things. And you know, they might have a great idea they might have a great founder to begin with. But somewhere during the whole process, they lost out on what to do and what not to do. And as a staged stuff, and that's what sometimes helps to guide us as a part of the founder since we actually when we started programming, which we are starting in the next by August 5 is when the next program going to start and the application deadline is 21st is the early deadline, what we call the 21st of June, followed by a few more weeks, you have actually two stages of startups that come in and join. And by the way, there are already lots of them were already applied and who are getting enrolled and from different domains. What we call is some bunch of founders who are there at the law launch stage, which at the early stage, he has the concern he has some vague thing and he wants to that launch stage. There are already startups who Like for examples, what you mentioned those who already had an idea have done some things, things were going smooth and suddenly disruptions happen, it may be COVID, non COVID or whatever the segment has got disrupted or whatever, I think they already have ventures or but some of the guys nothing might have got disrupted, but they are now finding a problem of how to scale I mean, no, I think how to get breakeven or how to scale it for the vision what it is. So, you actually have two sets of founders and I mean, even the the program is structured around two lines. So to call as the launch stage and growth stage and during the program, I think that you get a bunch of both of them and the problem statements and the support that is required for both these kind of companies are different launch stage cycle of what is required to be slightly different from growth stage companies. And what you talked about is an example of growth stage companies where their problem is about this product is there now we are using hundred customers who are paying but now how can they make 100 customers to 10,000 customers what unit economics Should I do woman or rather, I mean, right? If I have to be ready even or do I require capital and if I have to require capital, how I should get ready to be myself be misleading Angel ready or whatever it is. So I think that those kinds of founders fall into the growth stage dynamics. And both of these are part of those programming, I think, you know, attempt is always made to kind of see from because you already have worked with the closer on 4500 or 5000. founders who have created companies globally. There are various examples, case studies of how companies have come in at these stages and at scale. So I think those best learnings are used to kind of provide an analogy,
Puneeth Suraana 26:34
let's talk about the launch stage because I think that's more relevant now. Why it's relevant for you guys is because liking like we started the conversation with 2008 was a terrible time for a lot of individuals. But for those who looked at the opportunities, they started out at the right foot forward, companies like slack started and I think this is the next 2018 As an advisor wherein the next growth curve, the next companies which are going to be defined the market which are going to create Galata in the market are starting now. And this could be you. And that is why I think launch stage startups are more relevant for this conversation too, for us to explore a little more, because I think the next wave is going to happen in Bangalore, and not in Silicon Valley or not in Hong Kong, but in Bangalore, or in Bombay, where new problems are happening, and solutions, which are global could start, how do you think is going to help individuals right now, we're probably using their time in Corona, in the lockdown of thought of an idea was really given it a little structure in place. And now we're looking to take it forward,
Vadiraj 27:49
founders Institute self as a product got started in 2009. Again, I think, you know, we actually that's a perfect example. I mean, just to try to relate. I think it got started in 2009. When I think you know, the same kind of similar kind of things where the financial markets kind of had melted, and it was giving rise to a lot of newer sort of problems and newer economics were working and founder since you started it during 2009. And it's been 2020. And if you see the whole metrics of founder central only as a product or a platform, I think, you know, from 2009, when God founded by Aereo, I think, you know, we are now close to around 1600 mentors, global mentors, who are there 400 directors, local leaders across 185, or now it's I hear 200 cities across the glue, where it has made an impact for 50 plus companies that have got farm a lot of them acquire, they have been able to raise around close to 900 million from these seeds, pre seed stage accelerators, those who have graduated, I would say a significant sum from a pre seed stage level, if you were to talk about and I would say this is a perfect example. I mean, coming back, I think yes, I think No, I do. agree that it's a perfect time for somebody to channelize their thoughts put efforts to commit and get the right support. I think you know, these are times well used and well utilized them say, to kind of give that more impetus that is required.
Puneeth Suraana 29:13
It's a, it's a really good opportunity. And that's why I'm insisting you was listening to it right now that we need to take your idea forward, not later. But now because you've already worked at it. You've thought about or totally been growing in you, for a lot of us. We don't jump on an idea. It grows in us for years. And I think now is a very, very good time to take that idea forward. What is this framework? Like? Why did Raj if you could give an understanding so the listener could get his idea through it if
Vadiraj 29:46
possible? Absolutely. The way the structure is, I think, you know, to begin with when people apply and they have they give their whole thought process of what the vision is. I mean, I think it starts with the founder. Why is he committed and by the way, people apply? I think, not everybody gets accepted. I mean, I think there is a accessibility slightly more easier graduation is more tougher, I would say I think, you know, acceptability is more closer to around 70% of the guys who apply, I think they get, and I mean, you know, they get selected. But those who graduate finally of the accepted is closer on 35%. Because it's a lot of filtration happens not just in terms of idea, it is also about the plan. It's also about the segment and all that kind of stuff. So the way the program is structured is industry people committed people that like the listeners of these who want to be creating ventures or their first steps of doing something they join. And then the whole aspect is after they join, they get enrolled, there's a fee for program which is very small compared to the global standards of 399 as we speak right now 390 $9 for the whole four month program, but the way the program is structured is in terms of the whole vision of what you want to do, I mean in terms of what you want to do what problem of humanity are trying to solve How much are you committed? That gets an A formulated? post that I think, you know, it's all about I think, you know, if you want to do this, what are the elements that are required? I mean, what would be the like, if you're trying to solve this problem and by creating the product, who are the buyers of this problem? So, your whole statement of objective, the problem statement is kind of distilled in terms of various aspects of uniting, which segment it is, who are the potential stakeholders. So you go through the aspects of customer development plan, I mean, if possible, I mean, we are not actually now going to the customers but you're making a customer development journey. And you know, in terms of who are the guys who are going to be using it and the propensity of how often they will use it, how much they will be paying it, so you kind of go through the rigors of that. Then assuming the founder goes to the next step and has a good hang of it now. Now, we actually go through the steps of saying, Okay, now assuming that there are potential guys who are ready to purchase Now, let's go with a small box in hand or what Right. I mean, it's what we call in the technology world, what we call is MVP, minimum viable product. Still, now if we were saying that you, you have a virtual product and you're trying to sell now you actually say, oh, by the way, I have segments of guys who are interested. Now let's go and build a product, which is a minimal viable given the whole dynamics of what the I mean, under the limitations of what you have, you try to build a minimal viable product. And that's when I think the elements of the founder starts realizing that in order to build this, I require another person, I may require a tech guy or may need to hire or you may need to consult or whatever, then they put those efforts to build something like that. And that journey, I think, is a very interesting journey. Then you start thinking more about product technology, which segments what model b2c b2b and things like that. That's a very rigorous model. And then there will be mentors who will be kind of weekly advising them and there'll be frequent every week kind of every company needs to give an update in terms of their own reviews of where they are They just reach and that's a very rigorous thing I mean no because a lot of them whatever are things given I think there are real validations that need to go the these founders need to go to the market and do these validations Hostnet stages are the whole aspects of you do a minimal viable it will be earlier in context of there may be not actually technology that gets implemented but it is in a thought process of the model of the product and the whole aspect of a soft product MVP what we call then you go as aspect of building a whole product plan for it you build the whole product man How will you go to the market and so the whole it now you actually start displaying the whole detailed business plan in terms of what are the elements what are the ecosystem canvas that needs to be there who are the stakeholders, what partnership Some may require me know who may be your technology partner who may be your business partner and post that there will be elements that get covered about and again for very important for depending on whether it's a B to C product or a b2b product or b2b to see depending on each model let me know what should be your marketing brand. aspects of what you should consider and post all of this I think you know, there are aspects where a lot of times when especially in the technology world, I mean other aspects of how legal things come into picture how if a very deep tech companies there, how aspects of patents need to be considered how the structuring needs to be considered at some of these levels, there are aspects also now, organization building things start coming in I mean, I mean you know, there may be a person might have started as a single founder now, he starts realizing that you know, I think you may require another one or two persons to I mean no he may require another CTO or another business guy. So, that's when they start getting formulated they go and then come back and provide the sole thought about this and again, we guide them in terms of building a team building, I mean know the right framework of how their venture should look post that i think you know, there will be final mixer where they actually are ready to pitch about their product. It is at a stage where 30% of them now have kind of no graduation of their I think, you know, where they now they've gone through the whole cycle. And then post that is I think, you know, when some of the companies then then they start actually putting together the whole venture. And when you actually create a venture, you know, Congress Institute has a very interesting model of equity collective, I think you're pretty collectivization a model where I think 4% of the equity when venture gets formed is distributed in terms of very interesting model where 1% goes back to the cohort of people whom you share, or whom you have worked with and learn together. So there are a bunch of say five out of the 25 founders say 10 of them from companies who are graduates, and 10 of these founders 1% equity from each founder goes back to the pool of those 10 founders. So suppose you and me are co founders, you form in a company, I form a company, but your company succeeds and my company doesn't succeed after three years, but I have some share of your success. So just share Success model which is very important, there is six skin in the game for the mentors. So it's not a pro bono just like that. I mean, the mentors are there they are they partake 1% of the whole kind of pool of the founders, those who mean the mentor because of the skin in the game, they know that their efforts are channelized, then they also share that success as well as one person goes back to the ecosystem for founders to global 1% to the local chapter. I think it's a very interesting and a critical actor model which is a shared success as well as I think you know, it's not just a program which you pay fees and then you graduate in that you finish the kind of you know your relationship with them because there is a whole founder slab program which is entirely available in free for the guys who are associated with them till they raise the funding or till they want to be associated with the founding ecosystem, not just in India, but globally, any support that is required. And as a part of the alumni network, you are a lifetime alumni of apply to share successes. Learn from successes give any alumni support or getting them into support across so that way, it's a very powerful ecosystem from that angle. I mean, personally, when I learned the board and read about all of these things, I mean, that was a very interesting framework that has been very time. Like, for example, they very quickly I think, in the krona times, I mean, I see a certain immediate transformation of how they could redeploy a model, which was a completely classroom based training program to a completely virtual and this 2020 program cohort will be the first program, which is virtual 2020 program, and bandler probably is the first program which is across the word. And this just happened within a month's time. They remodeled that whole program, they remodeled the whole system, to kind of make it work. And I felt personally that that itself is a prime example of how tech in our company should work in terms of how quickly they should be able to reformat their whole economics flexibility. Exactly.